From maternity fund, changing world order to gains & gaps for women, Indra Nooyi shares rare insights

Indra Nooyi, the Indian born author and former chairman and CEO of PepsiCo, shares luminous insights and innovative ideas in a freewheeling conversation with Anant Goenka, executive director of the Indian Express Group. A role model and inspiration to many women leaders and entrepreneurs, she took time out from her busy schedule to discuss a range of topics – from elements that help and hinder women entrepreneurs, the possible solutions to some of the prickly challenges to sharing her reading of the American and Indian economy, the prospects in the months ahead, what to make of the arguments around a changing world order and a lot more. The conversation was as part of the inaugural session offering for the Express Awards for Women Entrepreneurs or ExpressAWE. Here are the excerpts:

Anant Goenka: Welcome Indra Nooyi. This is a very special conversation. The Express awards for women entrepreneurs, is the occasion why we are here today. And everybody, all the audience, the people who have been nominated, people who have entered the awards, the winners and the jury all of them are looking forward to hearing from you, and for good reason.

Everybody knows about you and your journey at PepsiCo but then what I found interesting, as part of my research, was your interest in cricket. You spent time in Chennai, were born and raised there. My father was as well. You are on the board of the ICC. You play the guitar or used to play the guitar, had an all-girls rock band at school called logarithms named after the matt tables logarithms. Your journey and your life is extremely multifaceted and well rounded. It has got so many different aspects to it. But I think before we get into what you’ve done, and the book, which I have enjoyed going through, want to start with what you’re doing right now. I think it is to do with affordable childcare. Why is that something that you have focused on? Just share a bit on the mission that you have taken on right now?

Why Affordable childcare matters

Indra Nooyi: Well, since I retired from PepsiCo in early 2019, it’s actually been a very rich and fulfilling life. And, I have had my stint with corporate America, lived under that pressure cooker life. And now I can do whatever I want to do. So, I’ve been focusing on boards, or working with nonprofits. And, giving back to society. You know, in PepsiCo, I lived under performance with purpose, I am now living a life of purpose. And one of the big purpose planks and I am focusing on is, how do we enable young family builders to have children, and yet engage in paid work. And the reason this is an important issue is because women who were sort of a forgotten group for many, many decades, now go to college in large numbers, they are studying hard, they want economic freedom, they are getting the top grades, and they are incredibly smart and incredibly hungry. For any country, company or state to move ahead, you want the best and brightest from society. You do not want to pick between the men and the women, you want the best of all of society. So, if you want the best talent to engage in paid work, and if you want that best talent, all families to have children because it’s important for the country’s future, what kind of support mechanisms do you have to provide those people to be able to do both without collapsing under the stress and strain of doing that? There are three things: one is paid leave, when somebody has got an illness in the family or maternity or the joys of motherhood, or fatherhood. The second is some flexibility in workplace so they can balance the twin responsibilities of work and family. The third most important thing is how do you make sure affordable childcare is available to them so that both husband and wife can engage in paid work and in the service of the country. And so, to me, quality, affordable and available, childcare is still elusive. And I think if we could approach this with a singular focus, I think we will have more kids, the population will be thriving. But more importantly, the kids will be brought up very well. So, I just think that the time has come for us to think about childcare as an important infrastructure, along with 5G and roads and rails and bridges and gyms, think about childcare.

Maternity Leave Fund

Indra Nooyi: You are raising the most important questions Anant, because we’ve often talked about big companies government who can afford to do it. But think of a little entity with 10 people. And there are two issues: one, how do they pay for the second, if 1/10 of their employees, which is one employee goes on maternity leave, how can run the business continuously? So, it’s a real challenge. I don’t have an answer, but I’m going to propose something. First, I think just like Social Security in the US, some sort of a maternity leave fund has to be created at the government level. And if we don’t do that, you’re right. SMEs, will struggle and SMEs are the backbone of any country. And so, we have to make sure they succeed. There is a second issue, I am sure you have it in India, too. But here we have the Kelly Services kind of people where if you need a secretary on demand, you can get the secretary and they’re all very well qualified, they can help you out when the secretary is out. I think we could think about people have been retired and could temporarily step in workforce and help SMEs fill certain jobs, when people go off to have children or deal with a family emergency or when somebody’s very sick. Look, maternity and paternity leave is one aspect. But, what if you have an aging parent who is very ill, you have to take care of them, right? So, we have to think of these cadres of people who step in. And we have to think about what the SME is going to pay for? And what can some sort of governmental organization supplement that? These are all numbers that have to be worked out within the context of a country. I am not a politician to figure out how to do it. But if we approach this as it is a national priority, you will be amazed how answers come up.

Anant Goenka: I think all innovative ideas are very welcome. And, the more we talk about them, the better. But Indra, we’ve heard people who are from large, successful companies in developed economies talking about importance of family life balance, we keep hearing about it. But do you feel that somewhere that actually makes the company, the economy, that society uncompetitive and that there is always some society in some part of the world that’s willing to work hard, that’s hungry, that really wants and is willing to work seven days a week, 12 hours a day? Does that kind of tip the scales? Does that at all concern you? Or is that a trend that you think is something that is a fallout of being over protective?

Indra Nooyi: It is a fantastic question. And I am going to walk you through the logic, why I think you have to think about it differently. All right. Now, let me throw some numbers out from the US. And I think some of those numbers may also apply in India in a different way. I read someplace that 70 per cent of high school valedictorians are women in the US 70 per cent of women are getting more college degrees than men in the US by 10 points, professional schools, you know, postgraduate degrees, women are really doing well. MIT is 47 per cent of Women Engineers, Georgia Tech, Cal Tech, you know, the best technological universities are 30 per cent engineers, and women are getting a large number of the top grades. Now, if we say that somebody is going to work very hard, if we start giving too much leave, people will fall behind. Typically, what happens is a woman takes time off when they have kids. That’s been the standard formula. If the women are the super smart, hungry people. And now you say, sorry, we are going to let them have kids and stay at home. Are we saying that we will eliminate the best and brightest and work with the second tier of people? And then say if they work very hard, we can still get ahead. I think thoe real thing that we have to say is we have to look at talent, the best talent. How are we going to have the best talent contribute to the country?

Unfortunately, men cannot have children. Otherwise, we could say the best talent is going to work. And the people who do not really strive to be the top can have the kids. That’s not how it works. So, because we need women in the workforce, we need the best talent in the workforce and because you need everybody to be able to have families, how do we provide the support structure? Let us not create a society where artificially we push out some of the best talent, because we cannot do something as simple as providing an infrastructure. Why is it that many companies are putting gyms into their offices? And you know, most of the gyms are used disproportionately by men? Why can’t childcare be viewed like a gym?

Changing family structures

Anant Goenka: Do you view the old Indian family structures with nostalgia? Do you feel that the Indian way of life is becoming more and more nuclear, especially in urban settings? Do you think that is a blind copying trend that’s happening? Is it? Is it just the capitalism that’s speaking? Or is it something that is just a natural way? Or is that just what we call progress?

Indra Nooyi: This is a question that could give me into a lot of trouble, but I will answer it. Before that, I just want to go back to the earlier question for a brief moment. You know, we always talk about this whole issue of leave but for managerial positions and leaders. What about is the day labourer? the people who work in agriculture, the people who drive trucks, they do have kids. And very often, they need two incomes to make ends meet. If they want to send their children to school, they don’t have savings like we all do. How are those people expected to keep jobs? And without them working, how is the economy going to progress? So, I am in fact, for India, I would say the bigger requirement is wonderful childcare, to support the frontline in the day labourer, so that those children have an equal shot at moving up in life. So, if you want an equitable society, childcare for those people is important. Because the first three years of a child’s existence is so important. Let’s shape them the right way with professional childcare.

Now, let me get to your second question. You know, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot. In the past, in India, in particular, multi-generational families worked because a woman stayed at home, and took care of the grandparents. And in many cases, I’m not saying all some wonderful in laws, who were wonderful with their daughters in law, then there were others who treated the daughter in law quite badly. And very often the daughter in law became the unpaid labor of life. And I think today, young women are saying, hey, wait a minute. Last time I checked, I am equal in the society. I have brains, my parents brought me up to study and be somebody not to be an unpaid labor of a life, I want to contribute. I want to have economic freedom, which is great for the country.

I think change has to happen on two dimensions. One, the older generation has to accept that the younger generation has to work today, to be able to have some economic freedom and build a good future for themselves. They have to accept that the woman is no longer the unpaid labor who can be treated poorly, that she has to be treated with respect. At the same time, we cannot abandon our older generation. So, the question is, how do we create an ecosystem in the community where the older people can live harmoniously with the younger people, without saying the only way this relationship will work is if I tell you how you should live, the older people saying, I will tell you how to live. And you have to make sacrifices because I have done my duty in the past, you have to do it now. That’s not how it works. And that’s why people are going to nuclear families because it is saying, I cannot take the burden of living with the older generation. I think we have to evolve a new model, where there’s community support, to be able to allow the older generation and the younger generation to coexist without, one part of the younger generation being treated differentially.

The challenge of hierarchy

Anant Goenka: The Indian society has been built on hierarchy. I mean, the way I talk to my professor, the way I, the employee- employer speak, the way father- son, father-daughter speak, there’s always some level of hierarchy. And the American system, I think, is in a sense, attractive, and I think you have also thrived in the American system because everything’s flat, everything’s equal. So, fundamentally, do you think there is a conflict and something that creates a lot of heartburn? Some sort of forcing equality and the challenge of hierarchy, but then, the hierarchy comes almost understated. Is that something you think that is causing tension?

Indra Nooyi: Well, I’m not sure it’s just hierarchy, though. I think it’s really the fact that we had what I would call a downtrodden class, which were women, that you could depend on to do all the work and be unpaid and cannot complain. Because we were completely and totally dependent on the husbands who could do whatever they wanted. The women had no say, even if they left the husband’s home and went back to their home, they were sent back to the husband’s home, however badly they got treated. To me, the breakthrough in the US was the feminist movement, which said: Hey, we count as women too and we need rights and responsibilities. Because our constitution says, we are all people of the country, citizens of the country, and we have the same rights and responsibilities. I do not see any difference in India, and I am going to say something to you. If you have a daughter, and I hope you do, when your daughter is born, your first thought is not, Oh, God! I gave birth to an unpaid labourer for life. I am sure you do not think that way. I am sure you will say she can be whatever she wants, she can dream, she can be president, she can be chief minister, she can be whatever, we are going to give her all the opportunities to be that. But many women do not have that opportunity today, when a choice exists between educating a boy or educating a girl, even if the girl is smarter, we educate the boy, we put down the woman. And I think that’s what needs to change in society. The country needs the best talent, we are in a war for talent. Let us lift everybody up and figure out how to give the support structures to make things work.

Senior care & beyond

I am going to say something else. I think one of the things that works in the US is Senior Care. I’m not saying is the best system. I’m not saying it’s the best system, because it’s depressing when seniors cannot be with their families. But you know what, to allow the younger people and the older people both to live in a good environment and do what they have to do. To me, we have got to figure out a new method of senior care. It does not have to be a model, which exists here in the US with it all together. We have to come up with an in-between model. I don’t know what the in between model is, but we have to evolve it and they are so creative in figuring out models unique to India. This is a national priority, because we have a huge aging population.

Anant Goenka: I don’t know the last time you traveled rural India, but, you know, I really think there’s a lot of progress on that front.

Indra Nooyi: I am very optimistic about India. Okay. I am very optimistic about the focus on equality. And I think that we have to celebrate the progress but I think it’s both we have to look at the cup that is half full for sure. But we also have to look at it as half empty and through the perspective of women, through the eyes of women, how do we make things better for them?

Anant Goenka: So, you’re not advocating joint family structures strongly. You’re saying that we are to figure out a new structure?

Indra Nooyi: No, I think it’s a family by family decision. I lived in a joint family structure very often, not all the time, but now and then. It worked well. Growing up as a kid, we were in joint family structures, but my mother stayed at home because she was not allowed to study and I say in my book, had she been allowed to study, she would have really conquered the world. But she was not given that opportunity is a tragic situation. But I come back and I say, I grew up in that environment. When I was, you know, sort of evolving with my kids. I had help from my mother, my in laws, everybody helped us. But I don’t know what the future is. I don’t know if I want to live with my kids. In fact, I am pretty sure I don’t. Okay, question is, how do we evolve a structure that works for both of us?

Anant Goenka: One is women in a workplace, earning a salary and being part of a larger organization. The other piece is women actually becoming entrepreneurs themselves. I think that’s the next piece. In fact, Mohan Bhagwat made a very interesting speech recently about how entrepreneurship has to get us the next level of jobs. Your views on that?

Social Security & Medicare

Indra Nooyi: I have got quite a lot to say in that. But I want to close out the earlier question. And then because an important one I forgot to mention, I think one thing that works in the US is the social security system, and Medicare and Medicaid. Because we have that older people have access to social security as a guaranteed income source, and they have medical care. I think in India today, very often, the older people are dependent on the younger people, because they don’t have a social security payment unless they have created a pension plan for themselves. And they do not have Medicare. So, they’re also dependent on the children to take care of them. The question is, are we willing to create a social security system for the less privileged people? I am not talking about the super privileged?

Entrepreneurship & job creation

Let me not come to your question about entrepreneurship. You know, men today hold all the positions of power and post and first things, whether it’s venture capital funding, men have all the positions of power in companies, men hold the positions of power, but men don’t have a lock on ideas. Women have enormous sets of ideas. But what happens when they go for funding? The men do not take them seriously. Or very often, they ask the question, who are the men in your team? As of to say men if men are not on the team, you can’t be very good.

Evaluate the idea, not the gender behind it

So, I think we have to change the mindset of men, say, evaluate the idea, not the gender behind the idea. Evaluate the viability, the success, the disruptive nature of the idea, and how it can create enormous profits for us, let’s not say because it comes from a woman. It’s got to be a female idea, even though women are 50 per cent of the population.

Two things have to happen. Venture capital funding has to be more equitable. Even in Silicon Valley, only 2.33 per cent of venture funding goes to female founders. You are therefore telling me that only 2.33 women have ideas? I don’t think so. So, I think there have got to be a mass education of men on these aspects which is evaluate each idea for what is worth, don’t dismiss ideas that come from women.

Tech layoffs, a small part of US economy

Anant Goenka: Can we move to the economy? It is an interesting time. It is a tough time, especially in the US right now. What, what would your advice be now to companies and to employees? I think the tech industry has lost, there have been 200,000 layoffs, conservatively speaking across the board in the last eight months. You know, in this in this environment, what would your advice be to management and to employees, who are obviously a little bit nervous when they enter the work, they enter the office, and they look at their inbox with a sense of anxiety for both

Indra Nooyi: It is the ebb and flow. I have been in American business for over 30 years, 40 years almost. And we’ve always had cycles where there is lot of hiring, productivity changes, layoffs, again, lot of hiring, it is a cyclical thing that goes on, and it’s very predictable, almost secular. So, I will come back and I say, anybody who is working, should put money away for a rainy day, or put money aside for a rainy day, because if you don’t have a clear proposition and a clear contribution to the company, all the excess will be whittled down, then the company will rebuild. That’s the first point. Point number two, everybody’s focused on the tech layoffs. We have 11 million jobs in this country still going abegging. Okay, we have record low unemployment and unemployment rate that we have not had in 70 years. We have it today in the country. The country is doing well. I mean, every state. In my own state of Connecticut, there are 100,000 job openings of all kinds. Sure, some tech companies have laid off and they needed to, they overbuilt and they over hired, and now they are whittling down to what they need. But that is a small portion of the American economy, the rest of the country is doing great. And then with this whole initiative, to be able to control our own destiny, and bring some of the supply chains back into the country. The opportunities are huge. The infrastructure bill is going to create lots of jobs, the Chips Act is going to create lots of jobs. So, I am extremely bullish on the US and its prospects. We are already in good times, there are going to be even better times for the US. I’m a eternal optimist.

Anant Goenka: Very interesting. And, the talk of recession, you think has always been overstated?

Indra Nooyi: I mean, people have been talking about recession for over 12 months, we have unemployment at the lowest level, we have the most number of jobs available. I mean, open today not filled. You have some sectors slow down. But, other sectors are growing at a ridiculously high pace, especially as infrastructure bill comes in. I think the real issue is, we have to think about everybody leaning in to contribute to the economy, as opposed to people to say, I don’t want to work anymore. I am just going to take my social security cheque and go lie on the beach. I think the country now calls for everybody who is able to come to work, because the country needs manpower to fill all the jobs. And so, I think that people have been talking about recession for over 12 months. I don’t see the slowdown as yet.

Anant Goenka: What we keep hearing about India as the only bright spot in the world, you don’t agree with that. You think there are many bright spots, not only India.

The India growth story

Indra Nooyi: Well, that’s a very bright spot given the size of the Indian economy. India is an emerging developed, it’s a highly developing market today. Growing at seven to 8 per cent is fantastic. Don’t compare with the US because 2 or 3 per cent of US is nearly 15 per cent for India because of the scale of the economies. And so, I think India is an enormously bright spot today, because outside of the geopolitical issues, I think that’s the big reason India is such a strategic partner. And because the population. Because what you had is supply chains is now shifting out of one large populous country into another country where people are seeking countries with lots of population skills infrastructure to be able to fill the void, especially the western world. And if India can get its investment in infrastructure, right, and I see all the things you are doing, which is great. I think India could be unbeatable in the next decade or two.

Changing world order & more

Anant Goenka: Do you think the economic world order is changing. Now, if you follow Ray Dalio, there’s one very interesting book he wrote about changing world orders. Do you see a shift? Or do you see that it’s just kind of ebb and flow you were saying earlier?

Indra Nooyi: The US has been the power for all this time. And it’s been good because it’s a democracy. It’s great to have a democratic country in power, all of a sudden, you have got challenges to the US from a different political systems. So, it’s created national tension, which is to be expected. If you go back and read about the cities, paradox, and all that stuff, when you have a competition between powers, what’s happening now is inevitable. The real question for the world is, who would you rather have as a power? Would you rather have a democratic capitalistic system or a more centrally managed system moving to capitalism as an equal power? What would we like? It is not for any country to decide if somebody else is going to be a power or not. It is a question of how do you play an unlevel playing field? And today, I am not sure it’s a level playing field. But to be honest, I am not a politician or an economist, I can only comment from the view of a corporate business leader.

Anant Goenka: I think what’s very interesting is and I want to know your view on this, at one point, organizations, especially consumer facing brands, very much like Pepsi from the US, BMW, Mercedes, the German automobile makers, the country was a big part of their global identity. I am a German car, Pepsi, an American company, Levi’s Nike and others – all very proud at the country being a big part of their brand, or their consumer facing brand. Do you think that is changing and that the country now isn’t something that they want to sell to the consumer as much as the product and the brand?

Brands – core & local trappings

Indra Nooyi: No, I think, if you look at every brand, whether it’s Nike or Pepsi, Apple or any US brand, they are all viewed as a bit of Americana, the innovation of America, the lifestyle of America, the joy of America, the culture of America, they all represent that. The point is, you cannot make business only on that narrow approach. So, most companies try to build shoulders. So, we say, we’re going to have our American products that form the core, then we’re going to build a set of local products that support the main products. So, we do that in every country, we have a global brands, and we have local brands. I mean, I look at a brand like Chanel, or Dior, the cache of those brands is the French, they are haute couture. But then you tailor it and say, Chanel for China. So, you add a couple of China lines. If they do, I don’t know. I just saw the Chanel line and Dakar that’s showing beautiful additions from the African continent. So, I think, how do you maintain the core values of the brand that gave it the cachet? And added something to it? I mean, I cannot wait for Chanel in India, where they have the French brand and the French couture. But what do they add that Indian to it, it’s going to be phenomenal. When they do it or if they do it. That’s the way you tailor a consumer facing brands say, what’s the core? How are you going to build the shoulders, but never walk away from the core? Because that is what makes you if you don’t have that core, you can just be another local brand. Why do you have to come from the US and set up shop?

Anant Goenka: And do you think is getting more complicated now because of all the awareness, all the news, you know, the fact that a lot of the Apple phones are manufactured in China or the fact that almost everything is manufactured in China, whether you’re buying a German car, you’re buying, a British American car, almost all the parts are coming from somewhere else. And this is becoming political now and so many times companies are being used by governments as strategic assets, you know, that, you know, I’m going to stop this. So, is running an MNC now more complicated than it used to be?

Indra Nooyi: The world is no longer flat, there are nation state boundaries going up. Right now, having visited some of these Chinese mega cities, many mega cities built around Apple or the Foxconn entities built around certain semiconductors, they are impressive. Because it’s not just the assembly, it’s the entire componentry that they build out to feed into the assembling. To replicate that is not going to be easy. I mean, for India to replicate a Foxconn is going to be very difficult and will take a lot of time. Because what you are trying to do is to build India of the future, not India of the past. So, to do that, you think about what could be the future ecosystem you have to build. So, it’s going to take a while. And for a while, China is going to be part of the global supply chain. If we think we can wean ourselves off that in two or three years, let’s think again, because of China, we can afford a quality of life in many countries.

Anant Goenka: But is it more political now than it ever was? Is it more complicated now to be to be managing these things than it ever was?

Indra Nooyi: Most Certainly, every company now has to have a foreign policy. Every company is now part of the foreign policy priorities of the country in which it’s domiciled.

Anant Goenka: Do you find that HR policy also needs a sense of localization, when, they’re working outside of their core country?

Indra Nooyi: Most certainly, I think every company has a core HR policy, which is based on the value statement. And then they tailor it to various countries. That’s part of every HR mandate, which is, in every country in which you operate, your local employees, local laws, local regulations apply and you cannot force. I will give you an example. In PepsiCo, we believed in gender equality. But in those days, you couldn’t go to Saudi and say, men and women have to work together. Because the Saudi laws did not allow it. So, we had manufacturing plants were, the women worked on one side of the factory and men worked on the other side. And there was a wall between the two, and there was an opening and the product would come through, or in our offices, men and women worked separately. Now, things are changing. But in those days, that is how it was. We worked within that. We hired women, we hired men, and we found ways to send the women home safe, right, using a transportation that was specific to the women. So, we have to work as local companies in every country in which we operate, while keeping as much of the values of the core mother company.

Anant Goenka: Wonderful! You mentioned that it’s great that the global leader is a democracy. And, you know, one thing that I hear often, is that democracy is coming is actually as a cost to India’s economic growth. I keep hearing that, why can’t we be like China, where decisions are just taken unilaterally and things move faster? Why do we have to keep building all this consensus and hear all these protests? I would love to hear your view. And I hope it agrees with mine. But I’m not going to say what mine is, you can guess that actually, democracy helps economic growth and their democracy. I mean, does democracy slow down economic growth is my pointed question to you.

Indra Nooyi: Like, if you’re an emerging market, should you have centrally strong government almost like an autocratic regime, that forces growth, and then at a certain point, you move to a democracy, let me assure you one thing, once you are a centrally-driven country, it’s almost impossible to move to a democracy, and the move might be bloody and perhaps never happen. On the other hand, when you have good democratic governments, you can actually make a lot happen. I was born and free and I only know democracies. I know how democracies evolved. I was born in a great democracy, I thrived in another great democracy. I never want to be part of any other system of governance. And so, let’s be careful what we asked for. If you’re talking about reforming the political system, so it works for the people and works better for the people more agile, more efficient, I agree with you, there’s so much change that can be done within a democratic system to improve government. And I think India is doing a lot of that already. Tamil Nadu is doing a lot of that my home state of Tamil Nadu, I was meeting some of the people when I was there in Madras in December, the IAS officer who came to talk to me about technology in Tamil Nadu sounded like a corporate CEO. Efficient, you know, wants to make a change happen. No wonder Tamil Nadu is ranked as the number one state. So, the reason I bring this up as states, which has, you know, have so much power in India can function like, you know, corporate entities within this messy but beautiful democracy.

Anant Goenka: Democracy is good for business.

Indra Nooyi: It is fantastic for business. We should all be thankful, we’re in a democracy.

Anant Goenka: Shifting gears and looking at pollution and sustainability, I remember a time when I was younger, we would buy a bottle of soda, or Pepsi for five rupees or six rupees, it will be a glass bottle. And you gave it back to somebody who will give you two rupees back for giving the bottle back. That obviously seemed tougher to scale but it is obviously a more sustainable sort of environmentally friendly way of doing things. And for scale, we replaced it with plastic packaging, which, you know, lands up with organic waste in landfills all over. How much do you think about this? How much did you think about this when you were at Pepsi? And how much do you think that’s something that FMCG companies, not just Pepsi, energy companies across the board need to think about? And what are the solutions for that?

Indra Nooyi: And that was the part of the genesis of performance with purpose at PepsiCo, because to me, the environmental plank was very important. I grew up in Chennai, which is water distressed. And I thought that using two and a half liters of water to make these beverages was not okay. So I had reduced the water footprint because I said there’s too many water distressed areas, we can’t continue to do what we’re doing. And our team was successful in changing the water use profile. I come back and say that the reason we have too much waste is because we have gone from a circular economy of sorts, to now an extremely convenience-based economy where everything you have to have now. You don’t want to move from your chair because you’re so busy engaged with your computer all the time. And you want everything given to you, brought to you through the swipe on your screen. All of that is great, the convenience, but let me tell you the cost of it. If you do not even want to recycle your beverage container, which many people do not want to do because it is too much work. Obviously, plastics is the only option.

RAPID FIRE

Indra, we now come to the last part of our conversation and it is a rapid fire round. Quick questions and answers. First thing that comes to your mind:

Your proudest moment?

Indra Nooyi: Having my kids

Anant Goenka: From your entire time at PepsiCo, one regret that you can think of.

Indra Nooyi: There was a product project called Pepsi Refresh that I had to stop prematurely. Because of unfair criticism, I still regret that I stopped it. It was just in the height of the financial crisis.

Anant Goenka: One thing about India that you cherish most.

Indra Nooyi: Its values, its family values, everything about it, how it’s changed with the times. To me, the importance of family, is something I always carry with me all the time.

Anant Goenka: The one thing about India that you think needs reform.

Indra Nooyi: I would say India is making progress towards a more agile, efficient, streamline government. I think India is going to be unbeatable. When it reaches its goal of having a fully digital fully streamlined government India is going to be unbeatable.

Anant Goenka: One thing about America that you cherish the most.

Indra Nooyi: Its innovative spirit, entrepreneurship. It’s just can do attitude with a must do sense of responsibility. I just love everything about it.

Anant Goenka: One thing where America that needs reform.

Indra Nooyi: Think the political divisions that we have today can be bridged. So I am very optimistic.

Anant Goenka: Test cricket T-20. Or ODI? What’s your favorite format of cricket?

Indra Nooyi: T-20.

Anant Goenka: Any one Indian woman business leader you admire?

Indra Nooyi: If it’s just one I will take Kiran Majumdar Shaw. I think what she’s doing in the whole area of biotechnology, how fearless she speaks her points of view and how humble she is. I mean, she’s just an extraordinary individual. And I respect her enormously for that.

Anant Goenka: That’s wonderful because she’s a Lifetime Achievement Award winner for this year.

Indra Nooyi: Oh please! My goodness! Coincidence. Please give her my best. She’s awesome.

Anant Goenka: The first word that comes to your mind when I say arranged marriage.

Indra Nooyi: Just make sure that women have a say.

Anant Goenka: The one thing you admire about Coca Cola.

Indra Nooyi: The history of the brand.

Anant Goenka: From the entire PepsiCo portfolio, what’s your favorite product?

Indra Nooyi: What I eat the most is Lay’s chips.

Anant Goenka: The last time you put your foot down with your daughters.

Indra Nooyi: I have two daughters and they are very, very different. The last time I put my foot down was about my first daughter, who is getting married. I put my foot down and something she wanted to do at the wedding. I said I am not going to participate in that. My little one, I never have to put my foot down because she never makes me to… not yet.

Anant Goenka: One lesson your daughters have taught you?

Indra Nooyi: Don’t interrupt when they’re talking. Let them finish what they have to say. We have a pretty good illness. Many of us think we know all the answers and we interrupt our children too much.

Anant Goenka: And my last question: is there any one beverage from India that you think has the potential to be a global product?

Indra Nooyi: I still love the Indian Badam kheer. If only it did not have as much sugar. And so, as a good for you product it could have global appeal if it was not so wonderfully sugary and fatty. So, we have to think about how to make it. The other one that I love, but I don’t know if it has global appeal is lassi. I think that is what Amul did. The chach was great. But again, I don’t know if it has global appeal. I know, it has global Indian appeal.

Anant Goenka: Any snack from India that can have a global appeal.

Indra Nooyi: I think even the namkeens Today, many of them are beginning to have global appeal. I think we put too much chilli into it. If we made it a little bit more palatable to the western palate could work.

Indra, thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. Hopefully,we touched upon lot of things that you were expecting and lot of things you were not expecting.

Indra Nooyi: That’s for sure. Thank you for having me on the show.

Anant Goenka: I hope when you come to India next, you will give us an opportunity to do this in person. We will do it at a live interaction.
Indra Nooyi: Look forward to it. My pleasure. Thank you!