This week, the Ambassador of the Kingdom of Belgium to Ukraine, Luc Jacobs, came down to an Ukrinform studio. This is the second ambassadorial term of the experienced diplomat in Ukraine. Previously, he headed the Embassy from 2014 to 2018 and saw with his own eyes the outset of Russian aggression against our country. During the interview, we discussed the issues of finding ways toward a lasting and reliable peace, Europe's readiness to address new challenges, and military assistance to Ukraine, including within the F-16 Coalition.

Ambassador Jacobs also provided important clarifications on the difference between the terms “immobilized” and “frozen” assets of the aggressor state and the possibilities of their use in Ukraine’s interest. He emphasized the importance of continuing systemic work to hold Russia accountable for their crimes of aggression, and spoke about efforts toward Ukraine’s recovery done by government and civic sectors.

We separately focused on the malign influence of Russian disinformation on the European audience and reflected on the parallels between the current situation of Ukraine, which seeks reliable security guarantees, and the historical experience of Belgium, which at one time realized that the policy of neutrality, as it turned out, provides no such guarantee.

BELGIUM IS WILLING TO JOIN THE PEACE PROCESS FOR UKRAINE

- During a recent meeting in Brussels with the Belgian Prime Minister, President Zelensky told him of the preparation of a European plan of achieving a just and lasting peace, and he invited him to participate in the work to this end. Is Belgium ready to join this process and in what capacity?

- I think it was a very good meeting that took place in Brussels between our prime minister and your president, and it was their first offline meeting. They have since the coming to power of the new government in Belgium had a phone call, and now they met in person. For our prime minister, it was the opportunity to reaffirm the support of the new Belgian government for Ukraine to strengthen Ukraine's position at the negotiating table and in achieving a just and lasting peace with the understanding, of course, that, a just peace with solid security guarantees is the only ultimately sustainable peace.

But Belgium is certainly willing, as our prime minister stated, to join this peace process alongside the European partners. But, Belgium will have to do some homework as well in terms of beefing up its defense expenditures. It is certainly something that the government is now concentrating on. We have to drastically speed up defense spending in Belgium, it is all about the objective of the two percent of GDP.

When it comes to “boots on the ground”, the military contingent and so on, our prime minister stated to the media that this is certainly something Belgium would look at from the positive point of view, but there is a note of caution at this stage. This type of action would presuppose that we have a solid and fair peace agreement, that we have a solid mandate as well, and that the circumstances are such that this presence on the ground would indeed serve its purpose.

EUROPE IS READY TO BOOST OWN DEFENSE, SUPPORT UKRAINE

- Do you have a feeling maybe that the very fact that the U.S. has changed its approach to the whole situation of the war of Russia against Ukraine and to the issue of protection of Europe against external threats created an unprecedented incentive for the European Union to review its own security and defense policy?

- You're right in your analysis that the signals that have been coming out of the White House lately have really sort of galvanized a European stance on the challenges and threats, and how to tackle them. I would not say that we start from scratch as a lot of reflection, study work, and political discussion has already taken place to see how Europe can acquire more autonomy in its own defense capabilities and deterrence. But, as you said, what we have been witnessing in the last  weeks has certainly been a wake-up call.

For me, a key moment is the special European Council that was convened in Brussels on March 6, and I think we can say that European leaders have really shown a lot of unity, a lot of sense of purpose and a lot ofl focus on exactly how to make Europe more autonomous, more independent in terms of providing for its own security, and also to reflect on what we can do more to keep supporting Ukraine.

That was a very strong moment. I think we’ve had overall a very large amount of consensus. But that is certainly something that leaders will work further on, that has to be further concretized in various ministerial councils. We now have a compass, we have a roadmap, we have a clear view on how we can finance all this. So Europe has certainly shown that we are ready.

BELGIUM CONCRETELY AND SUBSTANTIALLY CONTRIBUTING TO F-16 COALITION

- We heard the news that the F-16s pledged by Belgium cannot be delivered as planned due to objective circumstances, including that the F-35s from the United States have not been delivered to Belgium yet, so the Belgian airspace will not be safe without the certain number of warplanes in the fleet. Do you see any ways to influence the situation, to change the realities that we're now seeing with this delivery?

- First of all, Belgium stands by its pledge to provide 30 F-16s to Ukraine. That is part of the bilateral security agreement that has been signed with Ukraine. Belgium is part of the F-16 Coalition, and there is a division of work in this format. Those that were already in a position to provide the planes have done so. Belgium’s crucial goal in the Coalition at the moment is to participate in the training of Ukrainian pilots, and for that, we already make available F-16s - for Ukrainian pilots and ground crews. We also provide spare parts. Also, maintenance of the planes is something that Belgium is very concretely and very substantially contributing to now.

What is important to understand is that those combat-ready planes that have been delivered to Ukraine have to remain combat-ready. They need to stay operational, and for that you need trained pilots, trained ground crews, spare parts and maintenance, and that crucial part of the program is being looked after by Belgium. And the planes will follow. The prime minister has explained that already this year, we will be able to provide F-16s for spare parts, and there is good hope that we can deliver combat-ready planes in 2026. You should know also that the original target year in the bilateral security agreement was 2028, so we are well ahead of that schedule.

RUSSIA’S IMMOBILIZED ASSETS ARE PRODUCING MONEY AND CAN ALSO BE USED AS LEVERAGE IN REPARATION TALKS

- We know that Belgium holds the largest amount of frozen assets of the aggressor state. We heard that dozens of lawmakers addressed King Philippe of Belgium with the call to publicly support the seizure of EUR 250 billion worth of Russian assets in support of Ukraine. To what extent does the idea find support in Belgian public and government?

-  Also, I should give some interesting clarification here, and I will not bore you with the distinction to be made between frozen and immobilized assets. But it is a very important distinction. Because the bulk of the assets in Belgium are precisely immobilized assets, and this means they concern transactions that have been halted that involve the Russian Central Bank. This is a different legal basis to immobilize them than to freeze private assets. Now, the bulk of the money is immobilized assets.

It would not be right to say that they are just sitting there. They are producing money. By the fact that these assets are immobilized, they generate interest. There are also bonds that become cash money, and on that cash money interest is being generated, and that interest is already being used in order to allow for Ukraine to repay loans that have been granted by the G7. These loans serve exactly the purpose that we speak about, and that it's about helping Ukraine to sustain its economy and to sustain its war effort.

By confiscating this money we would actually kill the goose with the golden eggs, we would take away a sustainable source of a constant money flow to the benefit of Ukraine. So, when we have to choose between confiscating now and keeping a source of constant flow of money to Ukraine – and it’s not only Belgium that is reasoning this way but also other countries that hold important amounts of assets follow us in that reasoning – it would be wrong to give away this source of money. And also, this money is absolutely important to keep as a leverage in peace negotiations when it is about Russia repaying the damage it has inflicted upon Ukraine.

At the same time, confiscation could entail important risks in terms of financial stability, legal risks, and so on. And then, Belgium and other EU countries that would follow the same path would be disproportionately hit by all sorts of litigation.

- So you milk the cow. You don't slay it.

- Exactly.

BESIDES SANCTIONS, THE ACCOUNTABILITY DIMENSION IS IMPORTANT

- In an interview with our agency more than six years ago, during your first term as Ambassador here, when the war was already going on at its initial stage, you advised that Ukraine not focus on just one tool, which is sanctions. You said they're not the only instrument that helps the International Community uphold legal order. From today's perspective, do you still believe this is the case? What other tools of influence on the aggressor state do you consider effective and efficient?

- I'm still of the same opinion. Sanctions are absolutely important, of course.  Given the gravity of aggression inflicted on Ukraine now by the full-scale invasion, sanctions have taken up an even more important role. We are already at the 16th package of sanctions that are much more comprehensive than they were eight years ago.

But they have to be constantly reviewed. We have to adjust to evasion, circumvention of sanctions, and so on. That is a whole machinery at work.

At the same time, I'm still convinced, even more than ever, that there are also other ways to pressure them. For example, in the past weeks, we didn't hear a lot about accountability. We didn't hear a lot about impunity. We didn't hear a lot about war crimes being committed. We didn't hear a lot about how to repair the enormous damage and devastation that has been inflicted on Ukraine.

So also, together with European and other partners of Ukraine, together with Ukraine, we are working further on putting in place a special tribunal that will hear cases of the crime of aggression, and we also continue our work on the Register of Damages. So, the whole dimension of accountability and of not rewarding the aggressor, not allowing them to feel free in what they are doing, the dissuasive effect that comes out of this type of international legal instruments is still all the more important.

BELGIAN BUSINESSES IN UKRAINE ARE EXEMPLARY TAXPAYERS

- While maintaining economic pressure on Russia, it's really critical for Ukraine to see many international businesses retain their presence in Ukraine, thus contributing to the development of our economy, paying taxes, investing, keeping the economy afloat. That’s besides the obvious macrofinacial assistance from international partners. Maybe you have a story or two of Belgian businesses that remained in Ukraine, despite the big war that started in 2022?

- Soon after my return to Ukraine in August, I have been reconnecting with the Belgian business community in Ukraine, and I've also convened them to a gathering so that they also could reconnect among themselves, and precisely because I wanted to learn from their experiences. I wanted to know what they went through.

I collected a lot of different stories. I hear about companies that indeed had a very hard time, their facilities have been destroyed. I hear from others that are still operating very close to the front line that they show, indeed, remarkable tenacity and resilience, while also putting safety first for the workforce and their staff. I hear about companies - and they are not active in the defense industry -, how their productivity grows and their turnover doubles.

They contribute, as you said, to the economic life in Ukraine. They pay their taxes. I heard that the other day from the head of the Tax Administration that there is a very high degree, an exemplary degree of tax compliance among the Belgian companies. And I see an important role for these companies given the sectors in which they are active. It's construction, it's farming, it’s building materials, it’s state-of-the-art IT. I see an important role for them in the reconstruction and recovery of Ukraine.

Belgium has a powerful defense industry, and representatives from the leading companies, the flagships of our defense industry are coming to Ukraine, making contacts with their counterparts, and already in some instances they are already at a well-advanced stage of preparing co-production agreements. There is even talk about joint ventures with a longer time horizon than the war. So there is a dynamic at work. And as an Ambassador, I can only applaud this and I will certainly encourage this.

The Ukrainian defense industry has shown remarkable tenacity and resilience, that it is still being underused, that is developing cutting-edge technologies, and that it is really manifesting itself as a valuable partner for us. We have as much to learn from Ukraine as we can share with Ukraine.

NUMEROUS HUMANITARIAN CONVOYS ARE A RESULT OF CIVIC INITIATIVES

- Can you tell us more about Belgium's efforts, plans, and intentions toward Ukraine's reconstruction and recovery?

- Belgium is already present and active now. We have a running four-year program worth EUR 150 million as our contribution to Ukraine's reconstruction and recovery. The geographical focus of this program is on the Kyiv and Chernihiv regions. The sectoral focus is on health and social protection, education and skill building. An overarching objective is building back better, but also building back greener in terms of energy efficiency.

This program is being implemented by our ENABEL agency. They have boots on the ground since the summer of last year, and the first tenders have already been published. The work has started on building shelters, providing generators in the framework of decentralized energy generation. Fora are being organized on vocational training. Contacts are being made with various interlocutors and stakeholders. So it's also a well-oiled machine that is already rolling.

For example, I visited Chernihiv to see for myself how this is going. And I think this is a fantastic tool for both our countries to build this country back better, together.

- Yes, by the way, I saw the report that you came to Chernihiv, including to become a donor. You donated blood at a local hospital alongside Dirk Deprez, the ENABEL resident representative in Ukraine

It's a modest gesture compared to the tremendous amount of solidarity and concrete support that is being shown by Belgians towards Ukraine. We have numerous humanitarian convoys that are not organized by the government, but by citizens, being a result of civic initiatives, and that are very concrete examples of this heartfelt solidarity between people. It is about the delivery of medical equipment, delivery of medicines, delivery of ambulances, four-wheel drive trucks.

But I also see another development, which is the number of twinnings between cities and municipalities. So this very concrete cooperation between local governments. They are very close to the people and they are directly contacted by citizens who ask what they can do. And then you see growing interest in linking up Belgium municipalities with Ukrainian counterparts. The support, solidarity, and empathy between both countries find their way through various channels, and what civic organizations and civil society are doing here is just tremendous.

RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION HAS BEEN FLOWING IN FOR DECADERS WITHOUT US REALIZING THAT

- I assume that in the Belgium media space the issue of the war in Ukraine is quite high on the agenda and people understand the developments. But still, I do understand that, as it is probably across Europe, Russian disinformation, manipulation, misinformation, whatever you name it, is present. How do you assess the current situation of disinformation in your country and the ways it can, should, or is already being tackled?

Yes, I think the problem is not only that it's a constant flow of disinformation and that it needs to be tackled on the spot, debunked, and that this requires a lot of alertness. It also requires a very sound counter narrative.

But where the biggest danger lies in my view is disinformation that has indoctrinated our minds over three decades. It’s very hard to undo. We have been targeted by the barrage of disinformation for decades without us really noticing that we’ve been absorbing a Russian narrative, without realizing that this was disinformation, as if it was a true representation of facts. Let's say, the history of Ukraine is not too much known to average Belgians, and even I learn every day about the facts from Ukrainian history. If you compare that to the constant flow of the Russian-centered narrative on history, the distant history and also the recent history of this part of Europe, that has really done a lot of damage to our minds. And this is the hardest to undo.

We should really make the effort to dig a little bit deeper into what type of information is being spread to us. We should diversify our sources as well, we should compare sources, we should stick to reliable sources, but that demands a degree of mental alertness, which is a very healthy thing in these times. I do hope also that this is something that is taught in schools, that the new generation is taught to think critically, that we should not limit ourselves to our bubbles, we should have an open and critical mind.

BECOMING PART OF ALLIANCES IS THE ONLY PATH TO RELIABLE PEACE

- From Ukraine, we are seeing many, many parallels between what is happening now in and around our country, around the war and around the alliances in Europe and beyond, and what was happening during the major crises of the 20th century, the two world wars. And I believe everyone in Belgium is aware of the terrible consequences of both conflicts for the nation.

What reflections do you have, knowing the history of your country, knowing the history of the World War I period, and what we're seeing in Ukraine, maybe the consequences and repercussions of what's going on could be around the same as they were for Belgium back then? How long did it take for the country to recover? What experiences, what lessons can we take from Belgium to come out of this war stronger?

- It’s interesting that you draw that parallel, especially with World War 1, because it is very often on my mind as well when I look at what is happening in Ukraine. Indeed, World War 1 was, especially in the west of Belgium, the only slice of country that was still free, like one battlefield with all those trenches, as we see now on the front line in Ukraine. This was such a devastating war that took more than a decade to rebuild the region. And I also read that it was only by the 1930s that we reached the pre-war level of population in the region, housing, factories, and administrative buildings. Ypres was completely flattened.

A lesson learned from that war is that until today, we are still finding unexploded ordnance in this part of Belgium. I read that annually, 150 metric tons of unexploded ordnance is excavated there, and these are all sorts of ordnance, including chemical shells.

So that explains why Belgium is a proponent of all the international legal instruments that have been brought to life in the past decades on banning chemical weapons, anti-personnel mines, cluster bombs and so on… It is our collective memory of this tragedy that makes us take that stance in the international fora. That is an important lesson that we take and that it's an interesting point of comparison with what is happening now in Ukraine. At the moment, I'm told that Ukraine is the most heavily mined country in the world.

And this is an absolute tragedy because this is already a reality of the war, but this is also a reality and a constant threat that will follow you for years after the war in demining and decontaminating the country, and it is a real obstacle to reconstruction and recovery. So it's really a point of attention for the international community. We have to be aware of that.

Another interesting parallel. And here I would love to be a teacher of history in Belgium nowadays in order to explain to the students the futility of a neutral status. When the independent Belgium was created, it was tolerated on the condition that we would be a buffer state between the big powers of that time and that we would be perpetually neutral. So we thought that with that neutral status, World War 1 would not concern us. But we were invaded all the same. The situation in World War 2 was somewhat different. After World War 1, we were like Ukraine is now. We were also looking for solid security guarantees. But the security guarantees we got after WW1 have not proven very helpful to save us during WW2, so that is another lesson, how important it is to have these solid security guarantees…

- Not assurances.

- … An even more important lesson that we took from the two world wars is that for our security, there is no other solution than to go the way of multilateralism, of honest cooperation between countries ruled by basic principles as we find them in the UN Charter. We are founding members of the European Union, we are founding members of NATO, and that is our lifeline, that is our security.

So, that is the type of message I could bring to the students in class if I were history teacher: what we see now happening in Ukraine and what Ukraine is pleading and advocating for is exactly what we did ourselves, how we experienced it ourselves, it’s where we saw a real and secure path to peace, security, and prosperity. And this is being part of the European family, being part of the Euro Atlantic family, and being part of the United Nations that is based on very sensible fundamental, universal principles. So that is the life lesson we learned from the past century.

Ievgen Matiushenko, Kyiv

Photo: Oleksandr Klymenko